Welcome to AI Decodes the System, your guide through the intricate alleys of artificial intelligence, data, policy, technology, and law. Here, we make the complex world of tech effortlessly graspable. I'm your host, Amber Ivey, but you can just call me AI.
Today, we're in for a treat, fusing the worlds of data and music with the illustrious Tiankai Feng. While many recognize his accomplishments in the data governance space, there's another tune to his story: his captivating blend of data acumen and musical artistry.
So, what's the buzz about this episode?
Alright, before I give it all away, remember to hit subscribe and let us know what you think. And hey, let’s keep the conversation going online!
Social Media
Tiankai Feng: LinkedIn, YouTube, and Governor's of Data
AI: Decodes the System: Website, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok
Help me become the #1 (number one) podcast and podcaster for technology, public policy, data, law, and culture. Subscribe, download, and share.
If you like the content, feel free to support the show by donating to my Patreon account at the link below: https://www.patreon.com/Aidecodes
Welcome to AI Decodes the System, your guide through the intricate alleys of artificial intelligence, data, policy, technology, and law. Here, we make the complex world of tech effortlessly graspable. I'm your host, Amber Ivey, but you can just call me AI.
Today, we're in for a treat, fusing the worlds of data and music with the illustrious Tiankai Feng. While many recognize his accomplishments in the data governance space, there's another tune to his story: his captivating blend of data acumen and musical artistry.
So, what's the buzz about this episode?
Alright, before I give it all away, remember to hit subscribe and let us know what you think. And hey, let’s keep the conversation going online!
Social Media
Tiankai Feng: LinkedIn, YouTube, and Governor's of Data
AI: Decodes the System: Website, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok
Help me become the #1 (number one) podcast and podcaster for technology, public policy, data, law, and culture. Subscribe, download, and share.
If you like the content, feel free to support the show by donating to my Patreon account at the link below: https://www.patreon.com/Aidecodes
00:01.34
aidecodes
Teen kai thing excuse me t and kai thingng a data leader a musician um ever wrote that wrong. Sorry one second. Also if you want to resa something you can say it. It gets edit it. Um Tian Kai Feng is a data leader and a musician.
00:08.89
Tiankai
Yeah, yeah, okay.
00:20.80
aidecodes
Tian Kai is passionate about the human side of data focusing on data collaboration communication and creativity. He even creates music like the rap anthem governors of data to make data more fun and engaging with a unique blend of data expertise and musical talent musical talent. Tian Kai is here to inspire us all hello tian kai welcome to the show hi I'm so excited to talk with you. So um, for the audience I First saw tian kai on Linkedin. Um, I don't know someone else I think.
00:40.63
Tiankai
Hello Amber Great to be here.
00:54.60
aidecodes
Another data leader I followed either posted your song and then I started following you I think it was the song first and then I started following you and I thought it was so cool that you were literally mixing the best of both worlds and I was fascinated by your combination of data expertise and musical expertise. How did you merge these 2 passions in your life.
01:12.95
Tiankai
Yeah I mean to be fair I think I was a musician much longer than I was a data leader right? So music was first in my life and then data at some point came later down the line. So for me, it's interesting to talk because I could easily ask the same question about what makes.
01:18.11
aidecodes
M.
01:31.25
Tiankai
Ah, me Ah, what made me as a musician go into the field of data right? The other side around but either way I would say that music was always my my biggest hobby my biggest passion I would say in my free time and personal time and I think part of being professional, especially as a career starter.
01:33.00
aidecodes
Yeah.
01:46.15
Tiankai
Means that you don't want to show all of your personal sides right? So for a long time in the beginning of my career I just didn't show my musical side too much. But um, the more time passed the more I felt comfortable in the way I was at work and there was a moment I remember end of 2019 when there was a lot of frustration around. How.
01:47.81
aidecodes
Me.
02:05.00
Tiankai
Data and analytics is kind of ah perceived in the wrong way and not really understood and it was a lot about being deprioritzed and getting resources and getting pulled away and so on and I was so frustrated that I had to turn into my creativity a little bit and wrote a song called the Digital Analytics anthem.
02:21.90
aidecodes
Nice.
02:22.93
Tiankai
And for the first time ever actually I chose to rap as well which I never have done before as a recording artist. Let's say and I did it and more as a satire by the same time I meant it with the lyrics and everything I wanted to do I wanted to have that basically that feeling of being rebellious and not just like Manila kind of thing. About data people too and it it was really nice and a lot of data people really appreciated. It. They really felt heard and they felt it was the nice representation of the data community. Um, so yeah, and that's how it all started I would say I then spring getting more and more music into. And the way I did things and it started a bit more internally first. But then I went on Linkedin a lot more and there was this more um people that actually welcomed me the way I was and so I just ah, continued ever since.
03:11.30
aidecodes
I Love that because like you're saying like that's always been a part of you folks who? um on the outside looking in or folks at work may not have seen that. But I love that you were able to bring in. Multiple passions and bring them into like an intersection like I'm all about talking to folks about my intersections are data technology policy and Law. So I love playing in the middle of those and where they intersect that makes me the most Happy. So. It's really cool to see folks find their intersection and in a way that also pushes everyone else to come along because.
03:30.18
Tiankai
M.
03:41.65
aidecodes
Your posts are very engaging and folks are on them including your memes right? like you share things about data that are like duh like that's that's right that is exactly right and it makes it so easy to understand So I really um, appreciate that about the work that you're doing.
03:43.46
Tiankai
Absolutely.
03:53.65
Tiankai
Thank you so much.
03:57.40
aidecodes
The reality is though even though you're doing all this fun cool stuff with the music the memes or whatever to explain data when I talk about data. Most people think it's really dry and a boring topic. Um, also complex right? A lot of folks I work with um I work with folks who are normally not as.
04:04.31
Tiankai
No.
04:14.29
aidecodes
Data Um, literate who want to become more data literate. So I work with governments et Cetera folks who are trying to grow their data proficiency but folks feel like it's complex and then others are like this is dry as just numbers. So how do you use your creativity and music to make.
04:15.80
Tiankai
Right.
04:29.23
aidecodes
Data more approachable and enjoyable for um, the folks you're trying to reach. Yeah.
04:34.11
Tiankai
Yeah, that's a great question I think um I mean creativity I would say is the way I process the information. But I think what's even more important is the way I basically grasp. Ah, what is the trigger and what I mean by that is basically.
04:38.66
aidecodes
M.
04:48.97
Tiankai
Ah, data is all around us right? It's not something that we can deny. It's more about how willingly you want to engage with it and that either leads you to the field of data being data altrat or not but generally also how you want to deal with data in your day-to-day as a professional and I think a lot about it is also about empathy. So.
05:04.94
aidecodes
No.
05:07.30
Tiankai
Basically if there are let's say any certain fears around data then I'm willing to listen I'm willing to ask why they're so scared of data right? What makes them be so not confident around data and if it's data professionals. It's about what drives you crazy right? now. What are the biggest challenges in your life.
05:17.83
aidecodes
All right.
05:26.24
Tiankai
Let's say work life. And yeah, how are you dealing with it a lot for me is absorbing all that knowledge and then building up a little bit that um for myself, it's building up benchmarks and knowing what is all around me and how other people are dealing with things. But also it makes me a better data leader because I understand how other people are feeling about it and it's not just me selling it and punicating it I try to communicate in a way that's relatable and by by knowing let's say what? actually um, the stereotypes are as well of people and how they perceive a data professionals.
05:48.82
aidecodes
And.
06:00.10
Tiankai
I Have the freedom to then make fun of it right? So basically use exactly the stere time and turn it on its head. It's like making rap music with data nobody expects it and it's the opposite of what people might think about how what data people actually do and I'd really like to use that element of surprise to them basically catch the attention and while they're here.
06:01.61
aidecodes
Yeah, yeah.
06:14.88
aidecodes
And.
06:19.61
Tiankai
And are engaged with my content and what I have to say maybe learn something on the way as well. So that's basically how my brain that works what I'm doing. Yeah.
06:29.60
aidecodes
I love it and there's 1 other question I want to just ask you so I normally ask folks this question. Um, because the ai to code system podcast I'm Anne Brivy Ai are my initials and I'm trying to decode systems and make it more simple for folks and we talk mostly about data technology law and poke policy.
06:36.86
Tiankai
Is it.
06:44.62
aidecodes
Because those are the areas where I think they're just going to touch our lives um into infinity and I really want folks to understand them so I often ask folks? How would you explain data to my 2 year old and 8 year old niece I have two nieces. Um. They're savvy enough because they have roadblocks and things like that. But how would you explain it to them and break it down. Yeah.
07:05.36
Tiankai
Um, that's a great question I would say um if they're familiar with legos and Duplos right? I Think that's usually the example I would use. So.
07:12.46
aidecodes
And.
07:16.71
Tiankai
Um, playing with legos and so on. It's nice because they are colorful but they're also all fit together and you can basically mix imagine them into different shapes and this is basically how data works let's imagine every Lego piece is a piece as a data point and that is something to it and.
07:23.74
aidecodes
I Love that.
07:32.30
Tiankai
Um, you can think about it as in like master data and reference data and whatnot as well right? So you have basically what is the id of a Lego thing and everything is numbered. Let's say um and then you have attributes like the color or the number of the length or whatever you want to do with it. You have all these.
07:40.42
aidecodes
And.
07:49.44
Tiankai
Things that describe a Lego piece and that is all data right? Um, and in the end you can make more you can tell stories with it right? That is how data story telling works. You can also explain to others how the data works and show them what the data can do.
07:57.19
aidecodes
And.
08:05.17
Tiankai
Um, and you can also basically do advanced things with it right? Let's say you ah start putting like some automatic stuff in there and you have a Lego robot that moves as Well. That is also how how the new world is moving. But um, yeah I will always go back I think to Lego because that's the thing that kids at least all can relate to and yeah. It helps to expand it. Yeah.
08:25.70
aidecodes
I love that example, even as an adult I'm like oh wow because you go from literally when I first play with legos right? You make a little like ah almost like ah a little castle or whatever or.
08:34.90
Tiankai
Yes, yeah.
08:37.61
aidecodes
Or first honestly's not even in the castle is putting 2 together and then it's like oh is this thing and then there's more advanced folks who may build a starship and then there's more advanced folks who have ah a whole thing that's able to operate and move and all this stuff when literally it's just a block or.
08:43.71
Tiankai
Exactly.
08:53.70
aidecodes
Or a bit of data that you have there I love that explanation. So thank you for sharing that? um super super resonates and I will attribute it to you when I use it in the future. So let's talk about this rap anthem so your rap am Amthem governors of data and for folks who are listening.
08:57.51
Tiankai
Surf.
09:02.31
Tiankai
Um, so.
09:10.41
aidecodes
It will be in the show notes. So you'll be able to hear it I Also probably um, clip a piece of it to kick off the show. Um, but it's a great example of how you blend data music team. Can you tell us more about the inspiration behind this song and how it helps people better understand data governance.
09:23.11
Tiankai
Absolutely I think a bit of context is that although I worked in data on my career so far I spend most of the time in data analytics and data science and only switched to data government is beginning of last year and the first yeah and but the first thing I noticed is that as an analyst and somebody who.
09:31.68
aidecodes
Interesting. Okay, so.
09:42.40
Tiankai
And itdeates data and then gives insights to others. You are always welcome right? because it's always nice to have additional information. Basically so you're going all over the place you are invited to everywhere and then you show the cool data analysis you did and then people may or may not listen to you but at least they welcomed you into the crowd as a data governance.
09:46.39
aidecodes
Oh yeah, okay.
10:01.39
Tiankai
Um, a professional. It's the opposite like whenever you're not on the door people are scared. Oh they're bored or they just don't want to interact with you and it was so fascinating to me to have that feeling that there's immediately resistance to data governance and you have to first break the eye somehow and you're not just the person that's welcome anymore. So um.
10:02.83
aidecodes
O.
10:12.66
aidecodes
And.
10:21.33
Tiankai
That's the one part of the um story and the other side is that when I started this job. Um, in data governance I was basically given the mission to also Rebrand Data governance a little bit and that it was misunderstood in a lot of ways and not that thereby not really successful. So.
10:30.25
aidecodes
Oh Wow. Okay.
10:39.11
Tiankai
I was basically hired for my communication skills a lot as well. And um, that's why I was thinking a lot about how to make it better and we had a whole plan of communication that we actually implemented but we needed to kick it off with a bang. Let's say right? So I thought let's use my musical talents.
10:41.33
aidecodes
Wow. Okay, so.
10:55.60
Tiankai
And the lyrics are so important that I'm going to try to use them in the most related way related relatable way possible. Um, so the first few lyrics points that I had were all the from the second first which actually focuses on pop culture references right? like if and data is the forest and we're the jedi council. For example.
11:01.45
aidecodes
And.
11:14.97
Tiankai
That was the very first line I came up with as then how do you make it even relatable and how do you describe it with like 1 sentence that everybody gets kind of what it means and then from there I'll build on it right? So basically data governance as data sharepas. Not the police being ambassadors of the world of data and these kind of things.
11:22.69
aidecodes
E.
11:31.10
aidecodes
So.
11:34.40
Tiankai
Um, and then I basically turn it into a song at that point in time I was familiar with songwriting and putting it at Linkedin already so it wasn't like that was not the big hesitant anymore. But I think for me to have not been that long the area though and to write it and usually basically reflecting.
11:39.52
aidecodes
Okay, so.
11:51.85
Tiankai
On what I just learned and then putting it in the zone was very exciting to me. Um I was very happy that the data governance community was super welcoming to it right? like it became a thing where everybody asked me if they could show to their friends if they could basically finally explain to their parents What they're doing and.
11:53.98
aidecodes
H. Oh Yeah I.
12:07.56
aidecodes
Yes.
12:10.30
Tiankai
If they can use it as conferences to break the eyes bring breaks and so on um and I'm very happy like it's It's for me as a musician even the most successful song ever that I ever did because of that word of mouth around data governance. So yeah that that's how I'll come together.
12:21.21
aidecodes
That's so cool.
12:26.79
aidecodes
I'm glad you said you said a few things I want to um, dig into a little bit further so one like yes data analytics is always like the sexy, the sexy field right? there everyone wants to data Analyst and on her team. But then they don't understand that.
12:29.84
Tiankai
Me off.
12:37.20
Tiankai
Yeah.
12:40.41
aidecodes
You have to have data governance. Good data governance can get you to that to be an effective data analyst right? Um I also work in data governance I know where you're coming from and anytime um, folks are like there's someone tells them we needed to to launch this data initiative. They're like oh well, how do I do it and often that's how um I've worked with folks in the past.
12:44.45
Tiankai
Correct. Absolutely.
12:59.57
aidecodes
But like you said tends to be boring for folks and folks are like this can't be just it I remember talking to a leader of a so ah data ah data um chief data officer in ah in a big city and he was talking to me and 1 of my staff members and he was like when you all first started us on this I was like there's no way this is it.
13:01.50
Tiankai
Yeah.
13:17.97
aidecodes
Like it can't be this simple and this basic I'm like but it is like data governance is not this complicated thing but it's so needed and because it's so simple I think people often think it's not fun or or they can't try to rush through it to get to data analytics or predictive analytics in the more advanced forms. But I'm like no you gotta start here.
13:20.88
Tiankai
Ah, yes.
13:33.77
Tiankai
Right.
13:37.45
aidecodes
So I love that um you figured out a way to help folks see and make it easy to understand make them see why you need to start with this data governance piece because that's so important.
13:46.83
Tiankai
Absolutely and I have to say it did work of course also as an icebreaker afterwards to remove the resistance right? back to my very first point because once people have seen a music video about it.
13:52.00
aidecodes
Oh yeah.
13:59.74
Tiankai
Um, they had something to talk about that is fun in the beginning. Not right and not just expect somebody boring to come along and tell them a real list of rules. They have to follow so that helped a lot with the first conversations too. Absolutely.
14:06.21
aidecodes
Floater.
14:11.27
aidecodes
I Love that um I need to tell folks to use it for that because we we really have because we're teaching like data governance data inventory and data sharinging building a data governance charter like all the stuff that's like even how I said it was not that exciting right? So we need to make sure.
14:23.97
Tiankai
Um, that's right.
14:26.68
aidecodes
Change the image around that often because I feel like people aren't excited about it so you try to like get in there and like just say this is something needs to be done. But I love your approach and that it's not just something that needs to be done. It's something that actually is exciting because I I do love the worker wouldn't be doing it if I didn't love it. So I love that.
14:38.45
Tiankai
Him Absolutely same here. Yes.
14:45.14
aidecodes
So you mentioned that you're excited about um and I know and we like do a pre-s surveyveing you talked about the human side of data. Can you talk a little bit about what does that mean to you and why it's essential in today's data Drivenn world.
14:52.47
Tiankai
Um.
14:57.62
Tiankai
Absolutely Um, so I think what I realized is that um the data. How data is featured in the media at least and how I see it being mentioned is a lot about the technology itself right? So it's a lot about.
15:05.19
aidecodes
Yeah, like that 1
15:11.37
Tiankai
Let's say just recently of course all the Ai stuff that's going on but before it was about data lakes data warehouses or lakehouses and and data mesh and all these kind of words that are there and they' are very technology drivenve but with any kind of technology that comes the human side of it right? because in the end it's still human beings who use the technology.
15:12.89
aidecodes
But oh yeah or data.
15:25.51
aidecodes
I am great. Yeah.
15:29.99
Tiankai
And this is where usually I realize the friction starts because we're also eager to introduce new technologies to be cutting edge into organizations. But forget the change management part of letting users and basically people adopt it and. So it quickly became the thing where I could combine my strength for communication and ah compassion and empathy with my data expertise to basically make this part of the job right and make make sure that we don't forget the human part of things and really drive this.
15:49.35
aidecodes
With.
15:58.77
aidecodes
So right.
16:02.56
Tiankai
Um, so especially in data governance and I just mentioned dealing with resistance has been really? Ah, ah, really intense journey but I was able to basically growth through it and then apply my my skills in the there. But also explaining things right? generally speaking just like as you just said data governance where do you even start to explain it. There's so much to talk about.. How do you get an entry in and then in the end. How do you convince people to work with you right? Let's say data ownership Data stewardships. That's a big topic very hard to convince people to actually do it.
16:23.53
aidecodes
Right.
16:35.62
Tiankai
Um, how do you get there right? and so I realize the human side is something that just needs a lot more attention and I kind of just um I got really excited doing it So that's why I want to focus more on that topic.
16:51.40
aidecodes
Um, I'm glad you said that because one of the things I actually tell folks when I'm working with them on the ground I'm like technology isn't your problem like we can. We can even with the money right? We can um, get a technology that works we can.
16:56.61
Tiankai
Yeah.
17:05.16
aidecodes
Procure Something new if you're in the government like we can get the funding to get technology that doesn't mean it's going to work the way we need to work or people are going to be able to use it the way they want to I tell folks like I'm technology agnostic. So whether you're starting with an excel spreadsheet like at the basis. Do you have a spreadsheet even.
17:11.12
Tiankai
Exactly.
17:22.20
aidecodes
That is a piece of paper written down I can start with you wherever you are or if you have some advanced system it could because it is the humans. It's about working with folks so they can all get on the same page to do the work together to even move the data movement um in the same direction because technology can't solve the human pieces like it has to be. Like you said change management because even the best technologies I've seen folks launch amazing data programs like in states where people don't use it at all and they've wasted millions of dollars on these technology systems and folks don't use it. Um, and the way they should as it relates to sharing data and making decisions.
17:40.47
Tiankai
And.
17:56.54
Tiankai
Exactly except exactly absolutely I Do think there's also one point to it where.
17:58.33
aidecodes
So I'm totally with you on that it has to be about people coming together and that's most things right? and I think we often forget, it's about the human parts.
18:09.52
Tiankai
It is very easy. Let's say to measure your technological maturity in your organization right? And how far you're cutting edge and benchmark once else, but it's so hard to measure maturity in terms of people right? like how adaptable are we and how are we able to deal with change when it comes to data infrastructures and to data governance and so on.
18:12.54
aidecodes
In.
18:18.90
aidecodes
So.
18:29.41
Tiankai
Um, but it almost needs to be done right? You need to have an honest look in the mirror and say look We are just not ready for that technology yet because we are not even here yet right? So we might need to start a little bit simpler so people at least get a flavor of it. You cannot just start with the most advanced and everybody will be scared of it right? so.
18:34.94
aidecodes
Yep, yes.
18:44.30
aidecodes
Yeah, and that is very interesting because even some of the work I do is like in data culture audits to say are you like where are you just to be honest, but you're right and that we all don't want to know a little bit I think some people are even.
18:48.69
Tiankai
The cat was that feeling.
19:03.99
aidecodes
Scared that they're not as far along as they think they are like I often tell folks I start there I'm like you probably are way further than you think you are especially as individuals So I know a lot of folks are just scared of data. They're like I'm not good at math I'm like even if you're not good at math. You're gonna be fine like you're interacting with this stuff every single day.
19:05.30
Tiankai
Yes, yes.
19:16.18
Tiankai
Yeah.
19:20.64
aidecodes
Um, you touching the data points you're collecting the data. You're already a data stewardt. Let me show you how to actually like Govern it and use it in a way that can actually impact your life and change your life and then that's where I feel like minds start to turn when they can see one that it's okay and then the potential of it is not as scary as.
19:35.30
Tiankai
Evening.
19:40.17
aidecodes
Think it is like I'm not asking for you to be a hardcore Statistician like there's levels before that like leave some of that up to data sciences but all of us can be data stewards.
19:47.26
Tiankai
Absolutely absolutely And also I always usually think about how what you just said very rightfully is that people do deal with it every day and dealing with data is actually much ah more of a mindset question than it actually subject my expertise in many ways because.
20:00.11
aidecodes
M.
20:03.46
Tiankai
And the very first beginning is you need to just have a structured thinking right? and in many ways you are structuring your life right? You have a palner in your life. That's already a way of structuring. You manage your finances probably at home and that's also way of structuring. Um, and you have a to-do list probably with priority. That's also way of structuring.
20:11.21
aidecodes
Yep.
20:21.34
Tiankai
Um, as long as you have that you can apply it to working with data too right? and and that's usually how I also try to make it less scary because those other things people can relate to as well. Yeah.
20:31.41
aidecodes
I Love it. That's a great way to think about structures we already have structure units now structuring data in the same way that is very good. So I want to move a little bit towards yeah um, the pieces around data communication because I'm super interested in that. Um, and that's ah, another area that moves us out of like.
20:45.77
Tiankai
Um.
20:49.10
aidecodes
As you're going through like the data maturity model and you're like data governance is on this side of folks are like man. But then when we get to like data communication side. Everybody wants to do that at least the people I work with um and they're really excited about that way. But I'm like we got to start here, but sure let's let's communicate with data. But how can we improve the way we communicate.
21:00.22
Tiankai
Um, right right.
21:08.41
aidecodes
Um, data to different audiences is and why is this so crucial.
21:10.85
Tiankai
Yeah I would say I mean when it comes to communication. Generally you have to start with the audience right? and I think when it comes to data communication. It's often forgotten. What? what? the audience is actually doing and what they care about. And it's usually everybody's proud that works in data and everybody wants to show what cool stuff they're doing but that is always coming with a danger that you lose them at the beginning right? So if you just straight go for this is the cool algorithm I built nobody will get it if they're not familiar at it with all.
21:30.86
aidecodes
Yeah.
21:43.47
Tiankai
So my my approach would always be think about the audience and I know it's an efficiency thing too because you don't want to build 1 specific story for every single audience member but try to cluster it based on audience needs right? So some of them might be less data literate.
21:52.88
aidecodes
A a.
22:01.20
Tiankai
But they have a lot of pain points around Data. So Maybe start with that. We're here to help Maybe other people are already strongly collaborating with data teams and they just need to get upscalled in a certain way then you could do the story again differently maybe for sea level. You need to be very high level and use like just business impact more instead of. What you're doing but what impact you have think about what the audience cares and then you can do data communication better and what I think what's scary about it is you don't always have a lot of direct touchpoints with the audiences so that can get really hard but part of it is then to get closer to the audience right? so.
22:19.87
aidecodes
E.
22:37.38
aidecodes
Yep.
22:37.58
Tiankai
And I know for sea level. It might be a little bit hotter. But for everyone else you can of course just go and have a few talks with them right on why they care about the data and you can even test your stories upfront with them before you communicate to the wider audience and just do it like basically learn from how communication generally works and how marketing already works. And just apply it to the data side of things too.
23:00.50
aidecodes
I Want to dig deeper into this only because so my background um I started um in data working with executive leaders and having to communicate Data. Um data analysis to executive Leaders. So I learned early on. How to make it very clean and simple.. That's not how everyone else learned right? unless you're in depending on your field. You may have learned that way but most folks are learning because they're embedded somewhere doing the analytics and they're very much technical and about the numbers and then if you ask them to show you like a charter graph.
23:16.84
Tiankai
Yeah, right.
23:33.62
aidecodes
You look at it and it's like that's a lot of information that maybe an executive or c-suite level. Um member cannot understand how do you and a person who is in the weeds learn how to transfer those skills and I think you kind of said some of it like learning communications learn and marketing. How do you help them transfer all the great work they're doing.
23:38.86
Tiankai
Absolutely.
23:53.11
aidecodes
Into something that allows a leader to make a decision.
23:57.97
Tiankai
Um, that's a great point I mean I would say generally speaking again for me, it comes down to pride because I know that a lot of the people want to show how much work they put into it and.
24:11.80
aidecodes
That's not true. Yeah, so.
24:11.46
Tiankai
That means usually putting a lot of graphs and data points in so look at all the stuff I analyzed basically and unfortunately that that's not how it works for executives and leaders right? So um and the good news is they're not doubting that you didn't put a lot of working to this right? but they just care about the outcome more.
24:18.86
aidecodes
M.
24:25.54
aidecodes
Right? right.
24:30.33
Tiankai
And less about the how you got there So a lot about it is just changing the mindset and um and and a lot takes at least you have the so what thinking right? That is so basically okay, all great. You have all the airpoints. But what I'm doing with it right? So that's so what question is usually how prime basically more junior analysts to.
24:43.27
aidecodes
Right? right.
24:50.30
Tiankai
Think a little bit deeper into it like what does it mean? should we do something is it actionable. What would be a recommendation. What are we doing next and also cleaning up a little bit the um, the visualizations right? So do we really need all of the 10 lines in this graph or is it really just 2 that you need to show right? for example and then it's much cleaner. So um, a lot about it actually comes from own experience and just to basically prime them in the right direction. Ideally I would say these people they need to have the exposure so they get the questions asked from c level and executives themselves because that's the best way you can learn right? so.
25:24.15
aidecodes
Yes.
25:29.50
Tiankai
Being in that moment and being in the crossfire of executives and then being asked questions um makes you realize very quickly on what you did well and what you didn't do so well. Um, and that also means that as a leader of analysts. You should let them present themselves not only take the credit on your own and you be the only 1 presenting. All the time but bring the more junior people in so they can actually get better so you don't have to then basically do all the um nitty gritty yourself anymore and never come out of it. Yeah, great.
26:00.31
aidecodes
I love that I'm gonna start using that today. So thank you so much for breaking that down because again I've I had the ah other side of things where I was sports into exactly what you said where. Having to be in front of the executive leaders and they're asking questions and very quickly realizing that what I put in front of them may not answer and may not get to the so what? Um so I had that skilling early but being able to help junior staff that I work with understand like how to not have 10 um, like you said 10 list over here or. Even if something needs to be a graph right? Some things may not mean need to be a chart may just need to be worse. So there's different things and strategies there that I really appreciate you sharing and I know you're a strong advocate for a data collaboration. Can you share examples of how you collaborate. Um.
26:35.83
Tiankai
Absolutely Yes, yes.
26:49.54
aidecodes
And or how collaboration has positively impacted your data projects that you've been involved in. Yeah.
26:55.38
Tiankai
Absolutely I mean I think it it comes down to me um to what is the value of data and um I realized very quickly that data is only valuable if it's being used right? Otherwise it's just not meaningless. It's just sitting around and nobody's using it and it costs money.
27:05.52
aidecodes
Yeah.
27:12.95
Tiankai
So um, when it comes to data usage. There's more than only analysts and data scientists using it though right? because it's also for operational parts of the business. Um, it's to transmit orders for example to vendors and customers and and so on and so on there's a lot there and um, which means that.
27:17.39
aidecodes
And.
27:32.90
Tiankai
Although the data teams would have all the data and method expertise the business and subject matter expertise to the area of data sits within other functions and that means that collaboration is critical otherwise you will never get the full picture. You always have only one set of the picture.
27:41.80
aidecodes
And.
27:50.11
Tiankai
And missing the expertise over the other side. Um, so that's why even for my team I set up my team structure into being a relationship focused team structure and not a subject. My expertise team structure to build relationships and really personal relationships with Singapore of context on both sides.
27:58.79
aidecodes
And.
28:06.53
aidecodes
And.
28:08.46
Tiankai
To really have trust and then in the end of course also a great collaboration coming out of it I would say um the best collaboration come out of and in great word of mouth where my team would be even recommended to be worked with by the stakeholders that work with us. And they would basically spread the word for us right? So like oh you have data quality Issues. You should talk to Data Governance. They're exactly the right team to do it and then basically basically creating advocacy for you and that is then good and then you build up a right perception perception within your organization as Well. Right.
28:32.79
aidecodes
And I love it. So.
28:43.38
Tiankai
Um, one thing that I additionally drove was to spread the word um about data governance in a better way and one of the initiatives we did was a data talk show and what we meant by that was that 1 team member of my um, my team and 1 team member of the stakeholder side.
28:52.23
aidecodes
But.
29:00.16
Tiankai
They had a conversation on video basically together talking about the success of their collaboration and by using that it was it felt less about us bragging about how who we are but more about a cross-functional success that everybody could get inspired by or everybody could aim for when working with us.
29:03.61
aidecodes
Oh wow.
29:17.89
Tiankai
Um, and that really helped so that really continued Also the the nice cover version with everyone.
29:21.58
aidecodes
I Love that and I love being able to show exactly what's happening on the ground because sometimes right we don't do that. We don't sit down with the practitioner or the person we're working with to show how that collaboration work. Well.
29:34.66
Tiankai
No.
29:37.50
aidecodes
And I love examples and folks when they can see an example they can put themselves in their shoes and say oh, That's what you did I can do that and I think it makes it even easier for this movement to keep growing because we're still at a point where most folks say they get anxiety. When they work with data and they have to work with data which is wild to me that that's still a thing that folks have to deal with. But that means we just have a lot of work to do going forward and I'm excited that people like you are doing this work. But.
29:55.64
Tiankai
Absolutely no.
30:04.91
aidecodes
To that point the fact that the research does show a lot of folks have anxiety around interacting with data and actually stops them and literally I think the research says they spend multiple hours just on the mental part of like getting stressed around it for those who want to dive into this world of data but might feel intimidated.
30:14.21
Tiankai
In the.
30:22.59
aidecodes
How um would you advise them to get started on their journey.
30:28.80
Tiankai
Um, great question I would say um we mentioned it in the beginning ah like earlier already. But it's sad with the right mindset right? I think when you first see certain structures in your life and your day to day then that's already a great start. And any of those structures can turn into data points for you right? So I mean besides finances and your personal finances expenses and income. Whatever that is of course everybody has to go through that. But even the examples I mentioned about legos For example, right? and I know a few people who actually got really crazy and. Actually catalog their legos into like a master data management system people can do that right? if they want to, but um, also it's about your happiness right? So Let's say you want to keep a moot journal about yourself and you have like a moot scale for 1 to 10 every day and you just kind of give yourself a scale.
31:04.76
aidecodes
Nice, nice.
31:20.14
Tiankai
Um, there's a lot you can do to get started with the data to remove a little bit the business pressure and do it for yourself to just lose the fear and get started I think the other side is and it's it's funny because I never thought that I had to say it but it feels like people are scared to ask.
31:24.85
aidecodes
And.
31:38.60
Tiankai
Data colleagues for help like just to get upskilled but actually all of the data people met so far are very nice people and they actually want to help right? Everybody wants other people to get data it.
31:39.57
aidecodes
FF.
31:47.27
aidecodes
Oh yeah.
31:51.76
Tiankai
But for some reason and data science. For example, a data governance has been communicated in such a way that it feels very exclusive and very privileged almost that people don't want to get close to it and kind of ask scared to ask for help. But so I would say another step was just ask the next data colleague that you are a little bit closer with for some help and.
31:57.94
aidecodes
M.
32:10.37
Tiankai
He will even or he or she will even tell you probably a lot more from your own business and from that particular context that you're asking about what you need to know to get started as well. Yeah.
32:21.54
aidecodes
I Love it. That's super helpful. Um, and like you said, just ask for Help. So I Love to ask this question of all guests. Lastly, and I'll also give you time to promote or talk about any of the stuff you're you're working on as well. But as our lives become become more in time with data like. Even with these devices that we have like so much data is being collected the internet things like its just a lot of information that's being connected and collected. Why do you think it's important for listeners to understand how data will impact their lives and how can they take a more active role in shaping their Data-d Driven futures.
32:54.46
Tiankai
Um, yeah I would say um that because of now ai being booming so much and you have all these generative Ai models and like large language models and so on um, they are all learning from history right? They use a large amount of historical data. And then basically make patterns of it of it. The thing is that because all of that data is generated by humans. It's not perfect and human beings make a lot of mistakes in there in the history of time ever and that means that because a I cannot define. What is right? or wrong. They can only then have patterns.
33:19.98
aidecodes
And.
33:33.79
Tiankai
Need human judgment and our own conscience basically to make sure that ai does do what is right and wrong and that means not only to influence it and the way we can and try to actively steer. It. But also to call out things that are not right? So at least somebody is overseeing what's going on. And I think that is up to all of us right? No matter how deeply you are into data. Um, if you see something wrong being happening in like a recommendation engine or like ah some kind of text that feels a little bit biased or something call it out and make sure that it will get improved and so on. Um, generally speaking the other side of course is um, be aware of how much you're sharing with the world and um, what what influence that might have so um since we have a lot of laws and regulations now around it though. Um, that is already ah half taken care of but it's still up to you. On how you want to basically leave a footprint because the internet never forgets right? So there's a lot of data that's going to be there. So yeah I mean just consciously use your human judgment better and then hopefully we will be. Okay, yeah yeah.
34:45.33
aidecodes
That is the hope. Um, thank you so much. Let me know what are you working on now. How can folks find you um, feel free to share our drop any lyrics. All that is welcome.
34:55.84
Tiankai
Sure I mean First of all I think everybody is welcome to connect with me on Linkedin. That's where I'm mostly active and I also have a Youtube channel with all the music stuff that I'm doing so you can check that out, but it's also um, on my Linkedin. Um, account also linked. Um, and that's mainly what I'm doing I have a few appearances probably coming up also at conferences and so on. But once we're connected then you will see.
35:18.27
aidecodes
Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation I Really appreciate you for taking the time out. Thank you so much tianka.
35:23.74
Tiankai
Thank you so much.